Who wants OUR Tibia back?

[Strazdas]

there is nothing that declares it because cipsoft gives no information abut the guy that could provide such proof. pskjonett used to do good justice for them ,as you could see most of highshore players stay online way above the time human body could support. hence there is a limit to human and not a limit to bot. also the supply trian that comes from 8 botted accounts is simply impossible to achieve manually. you cant make it so 200-500k appears to you daily out of nowhere can you? botters can. another limitation is human response time. there is time between you see something and you respond to it. no such limit with bots, they see it before you do, becuase they intercept packets, and they can evne respond before you see it, thus there is a limit on people and no limit on bot. of a botter were to race a normal player, there wouldnt be a chance for a fair player to win, and thus all fair players either left or started to use bots, because tibia now is just a race of highshores and who has the newest warbot.

[Trashy Rashy]

You keep on making statements how bots does more action per day than humans. This is completely correct but also terribly irrelevant.

For good reasons I will divide my statements in two parts. One regarding bots vs humans and the other will treat the rights and wrongs of botting.

As I said originally, there is nothing wrong with botting. This is not a pvp game where botting gives you an advantage above another player in combat. What gives advantage are levels, which can be obtained by botting and by manual labor. You can argue that most botters are higher levels but this is not an argument of practice but an argument of theory.

Even though many high level players might be botters it is not that which is morally wrong. When a player powerabuses he might have botting behind him supporting with levels, but it could aswell be manual leveling. He is not a bad player because he bots, but rather because he abuses his power.

He can have 1000K more supplies and 100 more levels. He can have done a farming quest in a day, while you are still working on it after a month. The question is, is it fun? If both of you are enjoying it, what is the problem? You obviously disagree on what is fun but there is nothing which says both of you cant have yours.



To address the goal of Tibia, to be the highest level, I disagree. There is no official race or point to Tibia. It is what you make up yourself which matters. If you really want to be the highest level in Tibia, I will not only feel sorry for you but I will admit that a botter will have a HUGE advantage.

Unfortunately, levels are not a goal but a requirement. Just as in WoW, gear is not a goal but a requirement. As long as it is a requirement to have good levels to fully enjoy Tibia, and as long as leveling in Tibia is a pain in the ass, botters will exist.

If I decide to bot because I think level 8-80 are EXTREMELY boring. What would be wrong of me? You perhaps enjoy leveling 8-80 and I will let you do so. But what should hinder my enjoyment because we do not share it?

[Yuusha]

I have to repost this.

Tibia doesn't feel right. I mean think about it! no real authority present in game because they abolished the game master system and exchanged it with guido's "automated" way of handling reports, shady rule guides and problems.

While the community composed of lying, backstabing, griefing internet tough guys . The forum is a mess with nothing magical/mystical or even interesting to talk about! And the few remaining older decent players are alienated by what the present game has to offer.

And then there are Bots.

In short Tibia has a flawed gameplay, plagued by Bots and griefing players, no authority present, population of servers dwindling and the community spirit is dead.

I think it's a short of a miracle to fix that

[Trashy Rashy]

I haven't been online for a year or so. But I can't do less than agree.

Myself, I have taken a stance against MMO's and play more enegetic, challenging and fun games. Primarily HoN and CS.

[Strazdas]

This is not a pvp game where botting gives you an advantage above another player in combat.

Altrough tibia is not pvp-only game, bot gives you many advantages over another palyer in combat.

What gives advantage are levels, which can be obtained by botting and by manual labor.

Yes, it is possible to obtain levels by manual labour, slower, harder and with more risk.

You can argue that most botters are higher levels but this is not an argument of practice but an argument of theory.

And yet in this case theory is correct. If you would argue that the person does not bot until it is proven, then we would have to assume there is almost no botters in tibia at all, because cipsoft punish very little part of the tibia community, which would be completely false.

Even though many high level players might be botters it is not that which is morally wrong. When a player powerabuses he might have botting behind him supporting with levels, but it could aswell be manual leveling. He is not a bad player because he bots, but rather because he abuses his power.

Altrough i can see the logic behind this, and i would agree, botting is against the rules, and breaking rules is morraly wrong whicever way you look at it.

He can have 1000K more supplies and 100 more levels. He can have done a farming quest in a day, while you are still working on it after a month. The question is, is it fun? If both of you are enjoying it, what is the problem? You obviously disagree on what is fun but there is nothing which says both of you cant have yours.

The problem is, that botters gaining supplies and levels dont consider the quests fun or have done them already, thus pushed by thier boredom they make thier fun by ruining ours, and since he is using things obtained via bot to do killing which is caused by boredom brought with botting botting is indiretly at fault for player killer increase whichever way you look at it. if botters do not consider this game fun, then why play it? If your logic is, that everyone should do whats "fun" for them, no matter the rules or it being right/wrong, then we would go back to barbarism as a society.

To address the goal of Tibia, to be the highest level, I disagree. There is no official race or point to Tibia.

The race that gives most immersion for people is the race between people. they dont race to a point. they race to be "better" than others, and if they fail to be better they will use programs that will make thier character "better" thus the race becomes unfair for people who do not use them. cisoft tried to help them (see - cipbot (hotkeys)) but it has given only so much results while otherwise ruining the pvp system that tibia had.

It is what you make up yourself which matters. If you really want to be the highest level in Tibia, I will not only feel sorry for you but I will admit that a botter will have a HUGE advantage.

so you feel sorry for people who wants to be highest level and tnhe go tell that the only thing that matters is what we want of the game, therefore by your logic you codemn people that play the game for levels while at the same time saying its their choice? So its ok for a botter to have advantace in a part of a game which you dont care about simply because you dont care about it? not to mention that botter will ruin your part of game, say, roleplaying, with their botter high levels.

If I decide to bot because I think level 8-80 are EXTREMELY boring. What would be wrong of me? You perhaps enjoy leveling 8-80 and I will let you do so. But what should hinder my enjoyment because we do not share it?

so by that logic you should instantly start with level 80 because your not going to play untill that point anyway. which would be all fine in a singleplayer game. however in multiplayer game everyone should have to climb though same or similar (depending on your cohices in game amongst other things) mountains to reach our goals. if you do not like leveling, then dont. play a game where you dont have to. but as long as you play this game, follow its rules, becuase your not only making it more fun for you, your also making it less fun for others.

then again, you call CS more challenging and fun game, so why i even bother replying....

[Trashy Rashy]

Altrough tibia is not pvp-only game, bot gives you many advantages over another palyer in combat.
Yes, it is possible to obtain levels by manual labour, slower, harder and with more risk.

However, I disagree that this statement is of any importance. It is not the botting which destorys your fun, it is the power abusing.

And yet in this case theory is correct. If you would argue that the person does not bot until it is proven, then we would have to assume there is almost no botters in tibia at all, because cipsoft punish very little part of the tibia community, which would be completely false.

Not only can you prove a person is a botter. You can not blame botting for his atrocities. It would be sort of like blaming Hitler for his 'stache.

Altrough i can see the logic behind this, and i would agree, botting is against the rules, and breaking rules is morraly wrong whicever way you look at it.

NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT!
This kind of thinking has led humans to nothing but bad. STOP PLEASE.
What is different from other mammals compared to us Homo Sapiens Sapiens, is that we can describe our thinking in a collective way. It is what WE think which matters, and every individual can think for himself. If you follow your laws plainly because they are laws, you are a scrimp.
Clever men, know better.

The problem is, that botters gaining supplies and levels dont consider the quests fun or have done them already, thus pushed by thier boredom they make thier fun by ruining ours, and since he is using things obtained via bot to do killing which is caused by boredom brought with botting botting is indiretly at fault for player killer increase whichever way you look at it. if botters do not consider this game fun, then why play it?

There is nothing which indicates that botters in particular destroy the game for others.
What I have been trying to state this entire time is that botting IS NOT directly a result of causing harm nor does it directly result in causing harm. It will remain this way in this discussion UNTIL proven or argumented for otherwise.

If your logic is, that everyone should do whats "fun" for them, no matter the rules or it being right/wrong, then we would go back to barbarism as a society.

Wait WHAT?
What is barbarism? Barbarism is not an ideology nor a form of society.
Let us return to what I said instead of what you quote mined.
I have not ONCE said that anyone should have the intention of harming anyone else. I have just said that having fun is not a crime, and I have specifically mentioned that it does not include ruining others.

Why do you think wanking is legal, but wanking in public is illegal? Because that laws, just as me, are in favor of people doing what they find fun. But not in favor for people doing what harms others.

The race that gives most immersion for people is the race between people. they dont race to a point. they race to be "better" than others, and if they fail to be better they will use programs that will make thier character "better" thus the race becomes unfair for people who do not use them. cisoft tried to help them (see - cipbot (hotkeys)) but it has given only so much results while otherwise ruining the pvp system that tibia had.

If you truly intend to race for the #1 level spot. You are (a) sad, (b)playing the wrong game and (3)stupid for being surprised that if others share your opinion, botting is bound to exist in this game.

so you feel sorry for people who wants to be highest level and tnhe go tell that the only thing that matters is what we want of the game, therefore by your logic you codemn people that play the game for levels while at the same time saying its their choice? So its ok for a botter to have advantace in a part of a game which you dont care about simply because you dont care about it? not to mention that botter will ruin your part of game, say, roleplaying, with their botter high levels.

I am tired of your playground logic.
Not once have I said that I think it is both wrong and right to do something. I have just said that I think it is OK to do something... and that I think it is stupid that they do this.
To make my own Voltaire quote "I find your way of having fun stupid, but I am willing to argue for your right to have fun in that particular way."

Also, in which possibly way does botting destroy RP? OK if a botter is actually botting in the area of your RP'ing.
Did you refer to a botted player? In that case, as mentioned previously. Is he doing wrong as a botter or as an event ruiner?

so by that logic you should instantly start with level 80 because your not going to play untill that point anyway. which would be all fine in a singleplayer game. however in multiplayer game everyone should have to climb though same or similar (depending on your cohices in game amongst other things) mountains to reach our goals. if you do not like leveling, then dont. play a game where you dont have to. but as long as you play this game, follow its rules, becuase your not only making it more fun for you, your also making it less fun for others.

The only logic which could possibly be so stupid to say something as that would be your logic.
Tibia is a singleplayer game for most of the part. As I said before, levels is an obstacle and not a goal. If your goal is to have fun but it would require you 2 years of playing first, why would you do it manually first?

I am by no meaning saying botting is good. Just that I am not surprised people bot in this particular game.
I am not saying breaking the rules is good either.

then again, you call CS more challenging and fun game, so why i even bother replying....

Let me give you a hint on why this is hilarious on so many levels.
Not only does your logic (once again) let you make a conclusion not supported by your statement, but it also allows you to think your opinion is divine.
But let's compare Tibia to CS:
Tibia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eHUnVHJx7s
Counter-Strike: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wLxM71UzVw

[Trashy Rashy]

PS:
Please run a spell check before submitting your text. It's a bugger in the eye to look at your terrible logical fallacies, but it is almost worse to read such horrible English.

[Strazdas]

However, I disagree that this statement is of any importance. It is not the botting which destorys your fun, it is the power abusing.

It is the botting that enables many people to powerabuse. even worse, some people who woudl never power abuse normally would start to since there is nothing else left to do whne bot does the rest.

NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT!
This kind of thinking has led humans to nothing but bad. STOP PLEASE.
What is different from other mammals compared to us Homo Sapiens Sapiens, is that we can describe our thinking in a collective way. It is what WE think which matters, and every individual can think for himself. If you follow your laws plainly because they are laws, you are a scrimp.
Clever men, know better.

keep telling yourself that while i rape your mother....

There is nothing which indicates that botters in particular destroy the game for others.
What I have been trying to state this entire time is that botting IS NOT directly a result of causing harm nor does it directly result in causing harm. It will remain this way in this discussion UNTIL proven or argumented for otherwise.

Amount of botters colerate with amount of power abusers/random pks. If you are unable to see that, which is clear, im sorry, but it is not my problem.

I have not ONCE said that anyone should have the intention of harming anyone else. I have just said that having fun is not a crime, and I have specifically mentioned that it does not include ruining others.

So then you agree that botting is bad? you got me confused there.

Why do you think wanking is legal, but wanking in public is illegal? Because that laws, just as me, are in favor of people doing what they find fun. But not in favor for people doing what harms others.

This is a good example you given here. botting in private (singleplayer games) is ok, botting in public (multiplayer games) is not.

If you truly intend to race for the #1 level spot. You are (a) sad, (b)playing the wrong game and (3)stupid for being surprised that if others share your opinion, botting is bound to exist in this game.

so a person who finds fun in other things than you, this case - racing for levels- are sad? once again your opinion is the only opinion? or are you just used to call everyone that reaches high level "sad nolifer" like those kids on tibia forums? jelous?
Tibia is exactly THE game to do it. there is no levle of skill cap like in other mmorpgs, which means not everyone will be lvl 80 (or is it 90 now) like in wow, here the race can continue to eternity. botting will exist in any game. its human nature to choose the easier path. however playing online, this brings troubles.

Not once have I said that I think it is both wrong and right to do something. I have just said that I think it is OK to do something... and that I think it is stupid that they do this.

Also, in which possibly way does botting destroy RP? OK if a botter is actually botting in the area of your RP'ing.
Did you refer to a botted player? In that case, as mentioned previously. Is he doing wrong as a botter or as an event ruiner?

botting enables and encourages him to do wrong as event ruiner. it enables him to ruin events by overpowering you (because as you said yourself, its levels that matter in tibia). and he gianed that power while botting, thus he just has the pwoer without actually moving a finger. how convienient. it also encourage him, because since he gets level/eq/skills without doing anything, the only thing left for him to do is player interaction, and we all know that power corupts.

Tibia is a singleplayer game for most of the part.

No. before the botting surge there used to be events, group hunts, jsut hanging with friends in tibia every day. if you are unable to get in those, its your problem, not tibians. if your not intrested in them, then you make it singleplayer, but then why do you play the game anyway, if your not intrested in what it could bring.
after the botting surge you dont have the choice anymore too. whether you want it or not, your going to be attacked every day by a botted up character that is bored because it gets new lvl 100 character every week by leaving his pc on overnight.

good job there comparing a video of a person killing a dragon lord and a counter-strike tournament (which happesn to be russian if i heard them right or at least somoen was speaking russian there)
if killing a dragon lord represents tibia to you, then you are the one that play game for levels. hah, some of us remember when killing dragon lord was the ultimate challenge too. for some tibians THIS used to be what tibia means. what we see in counter strike here can be compared to tibia lan parties. result is same - bunch of guys (and gals) play games together. i guess CS has to be given credit for proving that simplicity is genius. a game which involves: walk, shoot, die (or not), repeat has manadges to get such international praise. though i wonder why isnt it dead yet, all the 12 year old already moved to team fortress 2.

[Blamina]

Just as a side note: I noticed that people who care for their characters get called "charlovers" on the pvp world boards. This development is very unfortunate in my opinion, because "charlovers" usually don't sell their accounts. If it's uncool to care for the characters Tibia becomes even more senseless.

[Strazdas]

hey, at least its not "carebears" like in another mmo that i play.

[The little one]

Apparently I missed some interesting arguments. Sorry I haven't been able to partake much, I've been extremely busy as of late.

Something I noticed... but I didn't see it disputed. (I had to skim over extremely large arguments so excuse me if this was addressed.) The argument came up that botters don't harm others, more so it is what they do after they bot. (Power abuse.) However, I find this to be extremely false. How many time have you gone to hunt larva and scarabs in Ankrahmun only to find the places is crawling with bots. What should be a decent way for you to spend an hour or two hunting with great reward in experience and gold, ends up being a mind numbing hunt for two larva.

The act of botting does in fact harm others. Defeated, you leave the cave because there is nothing you can do to remove the botters, who are obviously more proficient at hunting the larva than you.

This is highly prevalent anywhere you goto hunt. If it was an actual player, you could count on the fact that you would stay on opposite sides of the cave, or they might leave soon, or (OHGEEZ) you might actually have civil human interaction with this person! (Although we think this is rare, I've met a few really friendly players in caves that are just desperate for a friend because they're tired of running into bots.)

I believe that not only does it break the rules, but the act itself is harmful to actual players just as much as the end results of power abuse. Thoughts?

[Blamina]

I agree the act is harmful, it annoys the honest player that he can get no experience, he leaves the cave and maybe the game. Harm one! When the botter finally is a rich level 200 and lures on the honest player that didn't quit for some reasons and is only level 100 because he wasn't playing day and night our honest player gets annoyed again. Even if he won't die. He might remember having seen the botter, get frustrated and leave the cave or the game. Harm second. That's on opt-pvp. I imagine on normal or hardcore pvp monsieur botter just kills monsieur honest player. So harm second will be worse there.

I showed my boyfriend what happens in larvae caves on Harmonia. He was sitting on the sofa behind my computer. He said I should quit playing Tibia.